According to the reporter "on the red button" after the Leeds v Wire game Hull lost Carvell and after that struggled to get any "go forward"



Was that the case?

Let Wheeler do the shouting

Carvell did go off. Think we had to shuffle the team too when we lost Turner.

We have been fairly rudderless for years and whilst Wellens tries - I would say it is not something that is natural to him ( Graham , Scully , Farrell where born leaders). I would put Wello more in a Joynt category as a respected player others look up to, hence thrown in to leadership.

For me Walsh is the man to LEAD us forward , he's currently quite happy to point people to where they should be - it will be interesting to see what he is like when things aren't going so well - will he step up a dish out the necessary.

The turning point is we started to get go forward with walmsley and Amor leading the way. Obviously good go forward gets you up the field and in scoring positions and we took our chances.

Should we be giving a run out to someone like Richards? I know Masoe is due back and Beaumont hasn't played yet, but it seems like our first choice 17 still has a couple of deficiencies.

Laffrachi's able - he'll do some good things and work hard in defence, but he does not contribute to a physical battle like a prop forward should.

i think we should. Laffranchi's a backrower, simple as. Does a decent amout of tackling (like a backrower), but cant do the hard yards

The one person who stands out as an enigma when you compare his stats to what people seemed to see on the pitch is Jones.



You look at his stats and they are far too low for him to have been on the field. But most people, including me, thought he didnt have a bad game

His stats against Wire were far more impressive , looks like he did bugger all Friday

Didn't see him all night but he did cover the centre for Turner when he went off.

That side was quiet all night, Makinson didnt have much to do either

Tommy came inside a lot and took a few runs from the play the ball, just as swift did.

good to see them looking for work.

Wellens = experience; for which there is no substitute.

"you can't win anything with kids"

I don't think we lack experience to be honest.



We've got lomax, Makinson, Roby, Wilkin and sia etc played in grand finals. Jordan Turner, wheeler ain't exactly just burst on the scene. Luke Walsh, laffranchi and Mose are experienced NRL players.



The likes of Lms, Amor and Manu been knocking around for long time.



We've got enough experience in that squad to not pick wello and play with 17 instead of 16.





We've even got a experienced World Cup winner not making the 17.

And only 3 players who have won the league ...

Thats 3 more than wire

I didn't know winning the league is what gave experience?



If so, the ain't many experienced players in super league.

Also Sia captained his country in the world cup

We can't class the likes of lomax, makinson, wheeler, Turner etc as youngsters anymore. They have been around long enough and experienced some big games like finals and semi finals.



The new youngsters are the likes of Percival, swift, Walker, Thompson, greenwood etc.

I bet Makinson's played nearly 100 games for Saints, including 2 x grand finals. He's also had experience with the England Knights.

It doesn't mean we don't have experience, but I think you need to win a grand final to know how to win a grand final - which is why we've only seen 4 winners in 20 year - and it becomes significantly harder without players who have done it.

I don't think our experienced players are worth anything. Their experience of consistently losing finals is more relevant.

So having those experienced in winning finals is even more relevant - glad you agree saddened